Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I was reading through some material on the 1949 AAFC New York Yankees. The material identifies Harvey Johnson as their placekicker, but notes he was also 3rd string defensive center. As he weighed in the neighborhood of 210 pounds, I think we would call this position middle linebacker?

Thank you very much.
Nick

Given it was '49, my guess would be they are describing the middle guard position. Some believe the 4-3 evolved naturally/gradually from the 5-2 with MGs like Bill Willis, Bill George, Bucko Kilroy, etc. dropping back into coverage in the early '50s taking on MLB type responsibilities while others believe Tom Landry deserves more credit for the 4-3 as an innovation. This is a quote from Dr. Z:

Landry graduated from player to player-coach to defensive coach under Jim Lee Howell. Vince Lombardi ran the offense. In 1956 the Giants drafted a tackle from West Virginia, Robert Lee Huff, nicknamed Sam, who had been born to play middle linebacker in the 4-3, and that became the Giant’s official standard defense. By 1957 everyone was in it.

TanksAndSpartans wrote:Given it was '49, my guess would be they are describing the middle guard position. Some believe the 4-3 evolved naturally/gradually from the 5-2 with MGs like Bill Willis, Bill George, Bucko Kilroy, etc. dropping back into coverage in the early '50s taking on MLB type responsibilities while others believe Tom Landry deserves more credit for the 4-3 as an innovation. This is a quote from Dr. Z:

Landry graduated from player to player-coach to defensive coach under Jim Lee Howell. Vince Lombardi ran the offense. In 1956 the Giants drafted a tackle from West Virginia, Robert Lee Huff, nicknamed Sam, who had been born to play middle linebacker in the 4-3, and that became the Giant’s official standard defense. By 1957 everyone was in it.

For more detail---TJ's book is excellent...teams used it prior to that but it is a question
of how much and what constitutes a base defense---opinions could vary
but Washington, it seems, went to the 4-3 earlier than most (all) then reverted
back to 5-2, then back to 4-3

Teams interchanged them a lot---and a couple of teams, especially Cleveland
and to some degree the Bears would revert to 5-2 looks later than 1957
--not sure anyone has charted the percentages, though.
link
https://www.amazon.com/Birth-Footballs- ... 1442237953

The Birth of Football's Modern 4-3 Defense: The Seven Seasons That Changed the NFL

I wrote some about this in the 1951 LA Rams book in my article on Stan West, who was a middle guard. The middle guards would sometimes drop back into coverage, but they always started in a three or four point stance on the line of scrimmage. Or they might peel back after taking a step or two in on a pass rush. It was a little weird looking.

Jay Z wrote:I wrote some about this in the 1951 LA Rams book in my article on Stan West, who was a middle guard. The middle guards would sometimes drop back into coverage, but they always started in a three or four point stance on the line of scrimmage. Or they might peel back after taking a step or two in on a pass rush. It was a little weird looking.

Agree, 100%.

The only exception would be the Packers game in Milwaukee . . . against the one-back offense. Rams pulled out a 4-3 alignment for that one
that they used against that. When Pack was in the T-formation it was the usual 5-2 but when they had one end tight and three wide (one was one of the backs)
Robustelli would move to linebacker wide on defense right, Tank Younger would be wide on defense left and Don Paul would play middle linebacker.

West would still play on the center but wouldn't drop because he'd bump into Paul if he did he was an odd-man nose tackle in a way -

But in all the other games I've seen they were in the 5-2 like you describe.

Jay Z wrote:I wrote some about this in the 1951 LA Rams book in my article on Stan West, who was a middle guard. The middle guards would sometimes drop back into coverage, but they always started in a three or four point stance on the line of scrimmage. Or they might peel back after taking a step or two in on a pass rush. It was a little weird looking.

As you said, most of those middle guards like Stan West and Bucko Kilroy were really DLs who happened to be dropping back into coverage as a change of pace. I think Dale Dodrill of the Steelers is one of the more interesting MGs of that era, because he seemed better suited to be playing MLB rather than MG. He was one of the smallest MGs in the NFL, but he was a good athlete with great instincts.

I believe a defensive center would be a linebacker, but not necessarily a middle linebacker.

When I first started watching pro football, in 1947, there was no unlimited substitution and some teams still used the 6-2-2-1 defense. In that defense, the center and fullback were the linebackers and the quarterback was the single safety. When they moved to the 5-2, one of the guards joined the center as a linebacker and the other guard moved to the middle guard position, opposite the offensive center.

rhickok1109 wrote:I believe a defensive center would be a linebacker, but not necessarily a middle linebacker.

When I first started watching pro football, in 1947, there was no unlimited substitution and some teams still used the 6-2-2-1 defense. In that defense, the center and fullback were the linebackers and the quarterback was the single safety. When they moved to the 5-2, one of the guards joined the center as a linebacker and the other guard moved to the middle guard position, opposite the offensive center.

I never heard center when referring to the linemen. They were always called guards. Stan West made All Pro one year and it was as a defensive guard. The All Pro team picked two, him and Bill Willis, even though no one played a six man defensive line at that point.

rhickok1109 wrote:...1947...still used the 6-2-2-1 defense. In that defense, the center and fullback were the linebackers and the quarterback was the single safety.

This is what I found when looking into the '30s. Maybe I got it from you!

But, I don't think the answer to the OP's question is linebacker. A center played "line-backer" or "backed the line". I never read where they continued to call them a "center" on defense. My feeling when I see the term "defensive center" is the center of the defensive line.

rhickok1109 wrote:I believe a defensive center would be a linebacker, but not necessarily a middle linebacker.

When I first started watching pro football, in 1947, there was no unlimited substitution and some teams still used the 6-2-2-1 defense. In that defense, the center and fullback were the linebackers and the quarterback was the single safety. When they moved to the 5-2, one of the guards joined the center as a linebacker and the other guard moved to the middle guard position, opposite the offensive center.

I think that is also true of the 7-1 (diamond) the defensive center was over the center. Usually, I have heard this in connection to college football. This is the first instance
I have heard that term being used for pro football.