More struggle-some, Belichick w Browns or he thus far post-Brady?

[74_75_78_79_]

If its not too early to post this, that is. He HC'd Cleveland for five years and is now in 'Year 4' since Tom. One playoff berth apiece ('94, 2021).

At risk of this being seen as an unworthy topic (and maybe it is; apologies if so), what are your opinions on this?

Belichick always gave a 'boring' press conference, even when the Pats were killing it those 20 years. But (and maybe it's just my imagination because of the recent struggles) he does seem disheveled now.

For what its possibly worth, Pats did make the playoffs two years ago and were not too far off last year. But starting over from scratch should have already been applied then. Well now they got to do so. I'd, honestly, give Hoodie until end of next season then talk of it again. And I'm thinking that Kraft will have that patience.

Talking about being "not too far off" last year, the same can be said in each of his first three seasons with Cleveland. They were, FWIW, in-range but faltered in December each and every time. And he did win a playoff game for the Browns, and vs Parcells to boot!

So I guess that would give his time with Cleveland "the edge". And it can be argued that 1995's lack of success was due to the obvious psychological reasons based on what the entire city and franchise was going through. Maybe even more success than just 2001 had he been brought to Baltimore. A playoff-regular in the late-'90s already.

EDIT - of course I meant to say 2000 instead of 2001!

[Brian wolf]

Its just hard to believe that Belichick couldnt win with three #1 draft pics (Testeverde, Bledsoe and Jones)at QB. The offensive line just isnt playing up to standards right now but you still have to get everyone on the same page and Smith-Shuster seems to be mailing it in after signing the big contract. Are the players tuning BB out? Could they rally around Zappe? Incredibly, this team only has one rushing TD and Judon and Gonzalez are big defensive losses. Which will happen first, the firing of Belichick or the election of Kraft to the HOF ?

[racepug]

From what I've been reading I'm not so sure that Robert Kraft gives B.B. until next year to "right the ship" if the team doesn't start performing better this year. I guess we're all going to find out. But it is true that B.B.'s record as head coach post-TB12 is starting to very closely resemble his coaching record pre-TB12 and that can't be seen as a good thing.

[Cali_Eagle]

Talking about being "not too far off" last year, the same can be said in each of his first three seasons with Cleveland. They were, FWIW, in-range but faltered in December each and every time. And he did win a playoff game for the Browns, and vs Parcells to boot!

So I guess that would give his time with Cleveland "the edge". And it can be argued that 1995's lack of success was due to the obvious psychological reasons based on what the entire city and franchise was going through. Maybe even more success than just 2001 had he been brought to Baltimore. A playoff-regular in the late-'90s already.

I have a book about the Browns** & in it Belichick is quoted as saying that in his final year in Cleveland, the furor over the move just destroyed the team. But in each of his seasons prior to 95 the team was showing improvement. I think he would have been a winner in Cleveland had the move knowledge not effectively destroyed the season. Or had Modell stayed in Cleveland. Modell decided to get "A fresh start" in Baltimore so that was that.

I think today, Belichick ought to gracefully hang 'em up. I don't know how hungry he could be anymore with all the past success he's had. I think Kraft would probably like to start fresh too. These last 2 weeks have to be killing both of them.

** I'll edit with the title when I find it, for anyone that might have an interest.

[74_75_78_79_]

Yeah, as much as I so have not been a Pats fan this Century once their Dynastic rep started to get established (especially at Steelers' expense), two decades of excellence has to be respected. At least a couple more years (or several) as I already said.

If not, actually, breaking the armor - nor at all preventing any 1st Ballot status - perhaps some of the armor may be dented a tad or a bit tarnished since Brady left. Especially with #12, of course, winning another Ring w Tampa Bay in 2020! Between that very Lombardi his very first year with that new team, and these struggles in Foxboro thus far this decade, Tom obviously has more "weight" legacy-wise among the masses than his former-HC.

And then you ask just how many top-of-the-top-tier HCs (Dynasty ones, in-particular) of all-time won without a Hall of Fame QB??

Lombardi and Walsh really can't be discussed. Not enough work to judge them by, outside Starr and Montana respectively.

Paul Brown? Despite no further World Titles, he won quite-a-plenty after Otto Graham!

Noll's record without Terry not impressive, but who else (even 'good' HCs) would have led the Steelers to a division title while Bradshaw was gone all-but the entire campaign yet alone start 9-2, and then by all means lead them to the AFCC in '84, had them at least flirt with another division title the following year late-enough into the campaign, forged an 8-7 record (ok, really 6-6) in '87, perform that Utter Masterpiece in 1989, then still hovering, salivating over the division title going into the finale the following year (#1 defense in the NFL) with a different OC other than Tom Moore??? Keep in mind that by the time Terry left, barring Webster, Stallworth, and Shell still being present with barely any more Lambert, practically all leftoverture of the '70s Dynasty was gone! Who else, even 'good' ones, does this other than Noll remainder of '80s??

So, sadly, this leaves Belichick with quite a bit of seasons of non-HOF-QB lack-of-success thus far. Does this, now, jeopardize his 'Rushmore' status to those who still have him there such as unbiased me (Noll's in 5th with me but with with potential of charging-in at any moment with-or-without these current NE struggles; Halas is #4)?

Whether he stays in my 'Rushmore' or not, my defense of him for now if not forever would be the simple fact that you can't win championships with "just" a HOF QB (ask '80s/'90s Dolphin-fans)! Hoodie had a 'Patriot Way' system in-hand that worked. It worked in this very free-agency era, mind you, Handpicking above-average but over-achieving "nothing special" players from smaller colleges - many captains of their teams - and molding them all together in an underratedly supporting 'TEAM'-dynamic! "Unsexy", "boring", but look at the results/Lombardis (and that 9-year donut-hole of no titles '05-thru-'13 with plenty of icing and sprinkles (better than '80s Yankees) filling that entire void!

And, hey, wasn't it HE who knew to keep Brady onboard and ultimately try to supplant him over Bledsoe who practically NO ONE would have thought was a good idea before that infamous Wk#2 of 2001! Give him points for THAT!

But all greats eventually hit rock-bottom eventually if they stay in the game long enough. So let's see how he responds. And if not, still a 1st Ballot/Legend by all means!


All that said, let's do give kudos to Neale, Gibbs, and Parcells. Three HCs who, I'm sure, no one has in their personal 'Rushmore'. But name anyone better than the three who won multiple World Championships with ZERO Hall of Fame quarterbacks (SIX total between the three)??

Ouch! I'm sorry! HALAS with THREE himself - Pearce, Brumbaugh, and Wade!


PS - Cali! Throw me that book name! Yes, I'm the King of procrastinating when it comes to getting and/or actually reading books! But throw me the title anyway. Thanks!

[7DnBrnc53]

Noll's record without Terry not impressive, but who else (even 'good' HCs) would have led the Steelers to the AFCC in '84, had them at least flirt with another division title the following year late-enough into the campaign, forged an 8-7 record (ok, really 6-6) in '87, perform that Utter Masterpiece in 1989, then still hovering, salivating over the division title going into the finale the following year (#1 defense in the NFL) with a different OC other than Tom Moore??? Keep in mind that by the time Terry left, barring Webster, Stallworth, and Shell still being present with barely any more Lambert, practically all leftoverture of the '70s Dynasty was gone! Who else, even 'good' ones, does this other than Noll remainder of '80s??

According to Art Rooney, Jr, Noll had the final say on drafts, and Noll the talent picker let Noll the HC down. They drafted guys like Turkey Bouncepass (that's my name for Malone. My dad used to call him a turkey a lot) in 1980 over Rulon Jones and Joe Cribbs, Keith Gary in 1981 over Hanford Dixon, and Abercrombie in 1982 over Luis Sharpe. He also passed over Marino in 83, but the drug rumors were pretty strong, true or not.

So, sadly, this leaves Belichick with quite a bit of seasons of non-HOF-QB lack-of-success thus far. Does this, now, jeopardize his 'Rushmore' status to those who still have him there such as unbiased me (Noll's in 5th with me but with with potential of charging-in at any moment with-or-without these current NE struggles; Halas is #4)?

Whether he stays in my 'Rushmore' or not, my defense of him for now if not forever would be the simple fact that you can't win championships with "just" a HOF QB (ask '80s/'90s Dolphin-fans)! Hoodie had a 'Patriot Way' system in-hand that worked. It worked in this very free-agency era, mind you, Handpicking above-average but over-achieving "nothing special" players from smaller colleges - many captains of their teams - and molding them all together in an underratedly supporting 'TEAM'-dynamic! "Unsexy", "boring", but look at the results/Lombardis (and that 9-year donut-hole of no titles '05-thru-'13 with plenty of icing and sprinkles (better than '80s Yankees) filling that entire void!

And, hey, wasn't it HE who knew to keep Brady onboard and ultimately try to supplant him over Bledsoe who practically NO ONE would have thought was a good idea before that infamous Wk#2 of 2001! Give him points for THAT!

Good points. I would give him another two years to get this right.

People give Brady too much credit for NE's success. I don't see him having the success he has had if he started anywhere else.

I know he won in Tampa three years ago, but that team was loaded. Not really a good barometer to judge.

In addition, Bill went 11-5 with Cassel in 2008 and 3-1 in Week 1-4 of 2016 with Jimmy G and Brissett. Also, in 1994, Testaverde played below average that year when they won 11 games and a WC Game.

[JameisBrownston]

Its just hard to believe that Belichick couldnt win with three #1 draft pics (Testeverde, Bledsoe and Jones)at QB. The offensive line just isnt playing up to standards right now but you still have to get everyone on the same page and Smith-Shuster seems to be mailing it in after signing the big contract. Are the players tuning BB out? Could they rally around Zappe? Incredibly, this team only has one rushing TD and Judon and Gonzalez are big defensive losses. Which will happen first, the firing of Belichick or the election of Kraft to the HOF ?

Jones was nowhere near a #1 pick as the other two were. He was like 15th.

[Cali_Eagle]

PS - Cali! Throw me that book name! Yes, I'm the King of procrastinating when it comes to getting and/or actually reading books! But throw me the title anyway. Thanks!

I will. I looked for it earlier today and think I know which one it was, but I want to make sure that quote I referenced is in it. I will get back to you &/or this thread as soon as I can verify it's the right one.

Here is the book that the quote was in. It's a pithy quote about his lack of success in 1995. He was asked by a reporter: "What have you learned here in Cleveland?" Belichick replied: "Not to move your team to another city in the middle of the season."

This quote was not where I thought it was. I got it from "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam, it's all about Bill Belichick.

I had thought it was in one of two other books I have about the Browns. "Bernie Kosar: Learning to Scramble" by Bernie Kosar & Craig Stout

or in "Bernie, Bill and the Browns: The Last Great Era of Football in Cleveland." by Vince McKee

All 3 of these books cover the Bill Belichick era in Cleveland to some degree or to a great extent.

[74_75_78_79_]

PS - Cali! Throw me that book name! Yes, I'm the King of procrastinating when it comes to getting and/or actually reading books! But throw me the title anyway. Thanks!

I will. I looked for it earlier today and think I know which one it was, but I want to make sure that quote I referenced is in it. I will get back to you &/or this thread as soon as I can verify it's the right one.

Here is the book that the quote was in. It's a pithy quote about his lack of success in 1995. He was asked by a reporter: "What have you learned here in Cleveland?" Belichick replied: "Not to move your team to another team in the middle of the season."

This quote was not where I thought it was. I got it from "The Education of a Coach" by David Halberstam, it's all about Bill Belichick.

I had thought it was in one of two other books I have about the Browns. "Bernie Kosar: Learning to Scramble" by Bernie Kosar & Craig Stout

or in "Bernie, Bill and the Browns: The Last Great Era of Football in Cleveland." by Vince McKee

All 3 of these books cover the Bill Belichick era in Cleveland to some degree or to a great extent.

All seem like good reads! Thanks for the info, Cali!

[Brian wolf]

I didnt mean like, #1 overrall ... but drafted in the first round. Testeverde had his first winning season with Belichick and Cleveland and beat Bledsoe and the Patriots in a WC game before getting thumped by Pitts. Bledsoe had a bad 2000 season with Belichick, then got hurt in 2001 and Jones has regressed since his rookie season.

Reading about Testeverdes' career is incredible. He didnt have a winning season as a starter until his eighth season, in Cleveland. Then the team moves. He has a great passing season for Baltimore in 1996 under Marchibroda, his only 4000 yard, 30 plus TD season, while making the PB, yet the team wins only 4 games.

Then there is his great 1998 season with the Jets but the team is shut out in the 4th qrt in Denver of the AFC Championship game, a game I thought the Jets would win. He comes back from the 1999 Achilles injury that ends his season, with a 9-4 start for the Jets in 2000 but the team loses its last three games to miss the playoffs. He leads the team to the playoffs again in 2001 but injuries force him to miss most of the 2002-2003 seasons. After having a tough starting season in Dallas in 2004, he goes back to being a backup with the Jets and Patriots before ending his career in Carolina ...